(就石凳、庄文雅、一灯的帖子和相關討論而來)
較認可石凳的解釋。誠然，廣義地説，義也是利。但這兒，我們宜考慮狹義上的義和利，即，利是不義之利。
Then, with stonebench's criterion but my terminology, 義 is powered by the Will /愿/愿力/意志, 利 is powered by desire/欲.
An empire with though less sophisticated culture and fewer higher pursuits, at its beginning, still has some vision, which is the Will to create. It is a quality above the desire driven 利 . Therefore, it is still a form of 義, though limited. Yet precisely due to the lack of a more sophisticated culture and higher pursuits, once the empire is founded, it slips into 利 more rapidly.
This explains stonebench's account of 蒙元.
In my terms, a nation falls alongside the weakening of the Will.
而意志的衰减是業力递增的結果。
可見國之不亡是何等困難，因為要逆業力而行。這兒没有"守成"，衹有逆水行舟，非進則退。
This phenomenon is observed in other fields of human activities too.
In the arts, only a true genius has a never weakening Will. A true genius is a truly free mind, and is forever self-renewing. But this is in general against human nature. Accounting for this, Schopenhauer recognized a genius as "unnatural".
中國作為一個文明能延續至今已很不錯了，但每個朝代皆不出數百年而亡，因為一個朝代的角色更像一個國家，而一個文明則以精神文化為主。
對國來說，民之利即國之義之所在。
離開民利即統治集團落入不義，亦即國家失去意志之時。